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Wingless Dragon?
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Author:  Drakel [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Wingless Dragon?
Ok, this might be one of those questions that can’t truly be answered but still.

We all know that the Chinese Dragon could fly but it has no wings. How could this Dragon fly without wings? (MAGIC IS NOT AN ANSWER)
Author:  alondor [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
sayingmagic is not an answer is like saying dragons do not exist. but still avoiding tht topic, for now, i would have to say we need to look at a fish.

http://www.kentuckylake.com/fishing/fis ... natomy.jpg

That site shows the organs of a fish. Note the swim bladder, this is used by fish to remain at a constant depth in the ocean. Now i propose that chinese/japanese dragons and possibly all dragons had a flight bladder that allowed them to controltheir weight to the point of being lighter then air
Author:  vampirehunter42 [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
The main problem with that is water and air are completely different substances. Good human swimmers can control their bodies to the point they can raise or sink in water. That is because we are more or less "weightless" in water. This is because the water is on all sides and both supports and holds the body down.

Air on the other hand does not give that much help to flight. Even with hollow bones and an extreme light weight body even hydrogen (or helium) does not have enough lift ability to help anything large scale fly.

Without magic, non-winged dragons can not fly. It may have just been part of the "fish story" idea of telling a story, on that as the longer something is described new and more wonderful things get added to it.
Author:  Forgotten Dragon's Ire [ Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Personally i think it may have been a translation issue... such as one storyteller telling of the dragons seeming to fly in the water ... because we know that in Asian mythology many of the dragons are water creatures... someone that heard that may have taken it out of context and left out the "in the water" part... it just kept getting told without correction
Author:  alondor [ Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Vamp you make a good point (so do you ire but i am countering vamps counter) but there is the fact that despite what you say being true their is the fact that a small amount proportinently would not lift anything, but enough could lift an elephant. There is the possibility that their bodystructures have little tiny wings hidden that also aid in lift
Author:  Corva [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
They'd have to be quite large, and mainly Hydrogen. Look at the size of the Goodyear blimp. Assuming they're serpents 1m in diameter and 10m long. If they were completely filled with Hydrogen, they'd have to weigh less than 10kg in order to fly.

However, if they coiled up on the floor and sprung up, they'd be able to launch themselves into the air.
Author:  Blue Tiger [ Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
I actually heard somewhere in some story that chinese dragons actually did have wings, that they grew them at a very old age. I hadnt heard of it before, but it came from somewhere.
I prefer to believe that they flew by their own energy. Im not sure if thats magic or not, I dont think so, as I think Its an energy like an Aura, that allows them to just swim through the air. Particularly llike, if you want to see a reference sort of thing, the dragon at the end of Dragon Wars, the way he moved in the air is what I mean. I'm not sure where I heard the energy thing, but its the first explanation I heard, so I tend to go with that :D

I really dont know enough about the science part of it, but if I was going to go that way, I would probably come to the conclusion that chinese dragons just could not possibly fly without wings....unless you were the kind of scientist who is open to strange paranormal sciense and would back the energy idea...
Author:  alondor [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
My other option is that they have thousands of little wings on the underside of themselves like a seastar has tiny feet
Author:  zerince [ Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
and in addition to that maby they had much more than one flight bladder
Author:  Corva [ Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Still wouldn't work. Lift depends on the total wing surface, not the amount of wings. Adding in another "flight bladder" - presumably you're going with the assumption that they used buoyancy - would still make them bigger.

No, my money's on them coiling and springing, with perhaps wings to allow for gliding.
Author:  Blue Tiger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Coiling and springing? Thats an interesting idea, I hadnt heard that one anywhere before.... I like the idea :D I always saw chinese dragons as very agile and fluid moving creatures, so that would work. And add the gliding on. welll, think of the flying snake, they jump out of tree, flatten their underside, so it sticks out all along their body and they sort of slither through the air to land on another tree, Maybe they do that kind of thing?
Author:  alondor [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Might i point out that we should not dimiss any possibility as impossible as dragons have not existed in recent years so try to avoid words like:
DragonRider wrote:
Still wouldn't work.

Instead use words that expesses a disbelief

Now calulating in any breath weapon they might have, the organs of a dragon still would n ot take up all the room of a dragon's internal body. This would leave a large amount of room in for an inflated flight bladder to take up. Then add the fact that their bones could be hollow. Finally add the many small wings on the underside for the sake of preserving wingless appearance. All of these things combined, i think would allow the asian dragons to fly.
Author:  Drakel [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Here’s an Idea I just came up with today that might be possible

The Chinese dragon has always been seen in or near water, the caves they would live in is always near water as well. soooo.... with some flight bladder and some speed when "jumping" out of the water it would actually seen as though they were flying for a short time..... Think of the flying fish and how it seems that they hover over the water for a short time when they jump out.
Author:  Corva [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
alondor wrote:
Might i point out that we should not dimiss any possibility as impossible as dragons have not existed in recent years so try to avoid words like:
DragonRider wrote:
Still wouldn't work.

Instead use words that expesses a disbelief

Now calulating in any breath weapon they might have, the organs of a dragon still would n ot take up all the room of a dragon's internal body. This would leave a large amount of room in for an inflated flight bladder to take up. Then add the fact that their bones could be hollow. Finally add the many small wings on the underside for the sake of preserving wingless appearance. All of these things combined, i think would allow the asian dragons to fly.

You;re still not allowed to violate the laws of physics. Hydrogen can lift, at max, 1.16kg/m^3. Assuming the dragons are roughly cylindrical, and for the sake of argument 2m thick and 15m long, they're entire bodies, if completely filled with hydrogen, would have to be under 47kg. Using such cylinders as rough approximations, the surface area of the curved section would be 94m^2, leaving a budget of roughly 0.5kg/m^2 for the creature. And that's just to float. When you begin adding in the other features required for a living creature...
Author:  alondor [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
DragonRider wrote:
You;re still not allowed to violate the laws of physics.


I am just ointing out that human kind has yet to figure out all the laws of the universe. Nature likes to mess around with humans alot. There could be an element that is lighter than helium that occurs naturally in a dragon or on another planet. For that matter dragons could be from a different planet with heavier gravity. There is just so many possibilties
Author:  vampirehunter42 [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
That is very far from possible. Helium is made of one atomic proton and a electron. That is a basic as useable particle as you can get. Anything lighter or smaller can not be contained and will just leak through the spaces between atoms.

The from a stronger gravity idea is a good one though. I don't know if it would really help on our planet. But with a planet having a stronger gravity the atmosphere will be a lot thicker. And larger creatures would have an easier time flying there. I watched something about that the other day about the way planets may hold life.
Author:  alondor [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Vamp, have you let go of your common sence? How would a creature have an easier time flying on a planet with heavier gravity than say one with a lighter one? Further more I still maintain that we do not know everything about the universe and therefore we do notknow if something other than the number of atoms effects weight.
Author:  vampirehunter42 [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
As I said the atmosphere would be a lot thicker, or more dense would be a better way of saying it. So that has two factors that will help.

1. The thicker atmosphere will take less effort to keep flight. Much like how penguins can "fly" in water and not in the air. (though the air is not that thick)

2. Much higher level of oxygen. Oxygen as we know it is "fuel" for the body. And can give larger animals a more energy. Much like the early Earth had a large oxygen content and that was the time of the mega-insects. These were dragon flys with a wingspan of three or more feet.

This is due to the greater gravity holds more gasses, allowing less to escape. The reason gases like Hydron and Helium are lighter than air, is because the Earth is spinning them and other lighter gases away from it.

And though I do agree with we don't know everything. Even with a lot of searching we have yet to find many measurable particles smaller than a subatomic particles. They have found quarks but they are practically massless and are very short lived on their own. And leptons, while more stable, are near non reactive with normal matter.
Author:  Blue Tiger [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
vampirehunter42 wrote:
As I said the atmosphere would be a lot thicker, or more dense would be a better way of saying it. So that has two factors that will help.

1. The thicker atmosphere will take less effort to keep flight. Much like how penguins can "fly" in water and not in the air. (though the air is not that thick)

2. Much higher level of oxygen. Oxygen as we know it is "fuel" for the body. And can give larger animals a more energy. Much like the early Earth had a large oxygen content and that was the time of the mega-insects. These were dragon flys with a wingspan of three or more feet.


I agree with all that vamp. Makes a lot of sense. I the fact that we humans would die if we breathed in pure oxygen fascinating. We need oxygen for our blood and for a muscles to work, so it gives us energy. We get muscle cramp if we dont get in enough oxygen when exercising. And yet, if we had pure oxygen, our red blood cells would burst and we would be in a lot of trouble. I suppose this is because we have evolved to deal with the atmosphere we are in, 20 % oxygen is enough for us. But on another planet, where the creatures live in nearly 100% oxygen, that would be great for them!
But, what about nitrogen? We dont need it, and yet it makes up for 70% of the air. What about creatures that breathe that for their energy?
Author:  Corva [ Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
It's partial pressure that matters - humans can breathe 100% oxygen at 200mb no problem, but would die if they breathed 20% oxygen at 300mb, since the pO2 would be 60mb.

The issue I take with saying Dragons originated on other planets is that it doesn't explain how they could survive here...
Author:  alondor [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
nitrogen based organism with oxygen fuel supply?

Other than that i have no suggestions
Author:  Elohim Dragon [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Wingless Dragons
What about the possibility of advanced technology? Humans are already understanding reverse gravity technologies and anti-gravity technologies.

There are many likely possibilites in this thread. Especially the idea that the biology of dragons could be evolved to fly using some type of buoyancy or even mental and spiritual powers.

I believe magic is only science that isn't understood yet.
Author:  Corva [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
With magic, all bets are off, and gold bars can fly.
Author:  alondor [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
but elohim is correct magic really is just tech that is not understood at the time. Though elohim, we try to avoid the magic excuse until it is absolutely necessary because that is easy to pass off as.
back to topic, your tech theory is a possibilty since we are talking alien reaceand it is possible they are more advanced then us
Author:  vampirehunter42 [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Wingless Dragon?
Though I personally put alien tech in the same realm as magic. I do agree (with the many 'ifs') it may be done.

I still think the miss identification line of thinking is the best. Seeing we still do this to this day. Or just as an expiation for other natural things that go on. So thinking like this "Just because you didn't see the dragon causing the heavy thunder storm, that does not mean it was not there." was more than logical to the people at the time.
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