RE: frost dragons : Forgotten question

Forgotten Dragon's Ire · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:55 pm

Ok
Now To make sure i keep these questions in view i will quote them

Forgotten Dragon's Ire wrote:

The only questions we need to answer are:
1 What chemicals create a cold enough reaction when mixed?
2 Are those chemicals safe enough to store within a gland?
3 Are those chemicals easily made/obtained in nature?
4 Lastly not as important as the others yet still a factor How fast does the solution get cold?

But to keep ourselves on task lets answer these questions 1 at a time starting with question 1

(EDIT:later after searching for approximately an hour for possible endothermic reactions online)
Why is it so hard to find a chemical reaction that answers the first especially when i find a reaction and it never mentions once how cold it does get :madatcomputer:

(you hear the thud thud thud of someone slamming their head against the table)

hey falconer you have access to labs can you find a few reactions that at least go subzero because that would be cold enough i think to satisfy our needs and because we can't move along to answer the other 3 questions until we have a substance to put the questions to

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:22 pm

Sadly, when you add all of the "ifs" together you run out of choices. I am still one of the few who see dragon breath weapons as a mistaken reaction for something else. And just keep getting added to the stories because that is what the stories say about dragons.

Falconer · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:34 pm

@Ire: I wasn't clear enough, apparently, or forgot to mention. I'm a college student, I finished Chem 114 already. I don't do anything in labs at the moment. I can go dig through my chemistry text, theoretically there'll be reaction enthalpy changes listed there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthalpy/

@vampirehunter42: If said breath weapons are mentioned time and again, Occam's Razor states that it is more likely that they are based on an actual phenomenon than made up over and over again. That said, it's just fun to try to figure out how this could be done.

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

i still think frost dragons are an oddball breed (as far as dragons go they are pretty strange). the gland i was talking about holds the checimals and is release on contact. this creates a freeze vemon that causes a stinging sensation on the skin and the eyes and the mouth. it no only freezes it's vitcim, but stings them at well. this might require an anti-vemon. the vitcim might feel dizzy after threwning out. the gland mixes the nitrogen and other compound into a dangerous cocktail. that would poison the skin after it melts and the skin absorbs it causing the dizziness i mention earlier.

Forgotten Dragon's Ire · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:23 pm

oops my mistake sorry falconer i had just spent an hour searching online and was frustrated i couldn't find much ACTUALLY GOOD information but if you can find some info on some reactions that would be great

btw vamp i enjoy the challenge to think and come up with how this COULD happen and i don't care if it actually did(although it would be cool if it was true)

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

what do you think of my theory?

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

here are some food for thought from wikipedia. : Behemoth also appears in the Apocryphal Book of Enoch, giving the following description of this monster's origins there mentioned as being male, as opposed to the female Leviathan:
"And that day will two monsters be parted, one monster, a female named Leviathan in order to dwell in the abyss of the ocean over the fountains of water; and (the other), a male called Behemoth, which holds his chest in an invisible desert whose name is Dundayin, east of the garden of Eden." - 1 Enoch 60:7-8
There is another Jewish hymn recited on the festival of Shavuot (celebrating the giving of the Torah), known as Akdamut, wherein it says: "...The sport with the Leviathan and the ox (Behemoth)...When they will interlock with one another and engage in combat, with his horns the Behemoth will gore with strength, the fish [Leviathan] will leap to meet him with his fins, with power. Their Creator will approach them with his mighty sword [and slay them

Forgotten Dragon's Ire · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:59 pm

Forgotten Dragon's Ire wrote:

The only questions we need to answer are:
1 What chemicals create a cold enough reaction when mixed?
2 Are those chemicals safe enough to store within a gland?
3 Are those chemicals easily made/obtained in nature?
4 Lastly not as important as the others yet still a factor How fast does the solution get cold?

But to keep ourselves on task lets answer these questions 1 at a time starting with question 1

sorry this is about frost dragons not levi and behemoth, that was a different topic

here are the questions we are trying to answer

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

this is so embarassing. i meant to post that somewhere. sorry, drakes. i mess up yet again. :oops:

Drakel · **Posted:** Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:26 pm

LOL it ok.

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

i stick to my opinion that i meant earlier.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:26 pm

Ok I have been thinking on this. And try to use a bit of logic to work it out. And oddly still within my original thought as a ministration of something else. The idea of a large creature having organs that would hold whatever substance which would cause a quick freezing effect is a little hard to swallow. But if a dragon were to have an enlarged stomach it may be able to spew out stomach acid at a target. The stomach acid would be at core body temperature, so when released into the cold it would throw steam into the air from the air around it cooling it off. And as Tempest posted the target would now be wet from the attack with a sticky harsh smelling substance. With out a way to dry off or get warm the target will freeze.

And this may be an explanation to other breath weapons, if the stomach acid would catch fire and it launched it at someone carrying a torch it would look like a fire breathing attack.

All a dragon would need is a large stomach and muscles to control the spray.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:56 am

interesting theary yet I don't agree.

HOWEVER I got to give credit where credit is due your theary sounds really intresting and very well thought out.

Falconer · **Posted:** Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:53 pm

So dragons barf on their victims? I don't buy it. That tactic would only work if the dragon's stomach was completely empty.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:55 pm

I know! witch is why I disagree (though I shouldn't be talking or saying who is right and who is wrong cause I asked the question lols.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:50 am

Well if it is a hunting tactic, I would think the stomach would be empty. And if a defensive tactic, what better way to lighten your body than to empty your stomach.

And it does happen in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_vomiting

Falconer · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:45 am

vampirehunter42 wrote:

And it does happen in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_vomiting

But those aren't damaging to the predator/victim. At most, it's just smelly.

raptor · **Joined:** Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:41 pm **Posts:** 753

I still think the so- called "ice" is actually frozen vemon, that strings the skin when it melts.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:42 pm

Yep, I know you all want a more lethal and dramatic thing. But most things are just the simple way of being done. And add to that no proper evidence of what a frost dragon's attack looks like or even does, we must interpret from what we know. And with this you have no need for special chemicals or organs needed for a mixing process. All it takes is a warm liquid sprayed out towards a target, maybe the dragon has a way to break the spray into a mist. It will freeze much quicker that way and being a "dirty liquid" it will be colder than pure water when it freezes.

But the key idea is how things are interpreted. Someone living in a cold environment sees a dragon use a breath weapon on someone, they run and hide till the dragon is gone, when they find they person that was attacked they are covered with strange ice. So naturally they must think the dragon use an ice based weapon. If that happened enough, it will be called "fact".

Just think of it as magic tricks. Yes David Blaine looks like he if floating in the air. But he is really just standing up on his toe while everyone else is on the other side.

Falconer · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:50 pm

vampirehunter42 wrote:

But the key idea is how things are interpreted. Someone living in a cold environment sees a dragon use a breath weapon on someone, they run and hide till the dragon is gone, when they find they person that was attacked they are covered with strange ice. So naturally they must think the dragon use an ice based weapon. If that happened enough, it will be called "fact".

If we aren't proceeding on the assumption that medieval people knew what they were talking about, we may as well declare that dragon ice is magic! Essentially, the only knowledge we have is from old accounts. If that is to be considered unreliable at best, outright story at worst, then we're back at square one. Might as well be discussing magic beans.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:36 pm

Yep, it is the same as showing someone from the 10th century a car. To them it is ran by magic. But as I said, even magic can be logically explained as a trick of how you see it.

We are just stuck with stories that may or may not be true. And may or may not be repeated correctly. Even a miss translation can cause problems. And seeing that even happens now, it had to happen them. For example when Giovanni Schiaparelli observed Mars he saw "lines" and he called them "canali" Italian for "channels", but that was translated into English as "canals". Which really fueled the arguments for life on Mars. And even learned scientist kept the idea going that the "canals" were there.

I know I am a real downer on this stuff. But you find the simple answer is the right one most of the time.

Drakel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:51 pm

you are right on one thing. sometimes ppl misunderstand things and say it is one thing when it is not.

(though I dissagree with your theary that they never exsisted)

RE: frost dragons : Forgotten question

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