Number of fingers/toes

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:13 am

Ok this is one that have bugged me the full time I have been reading about dragons. How many finger and or toes do they have? And would they have "fingers", and would there be a "thumb", and how would that be placed?

The main thought is dragons are shown with five, four and three toed types. Even within the same areas. Like the Chinese dragon is shown with all three types depending on who is allowed to wear the image. The Japanese have their own thoughts on it. And I don't think I have read any hard evidence in the other parts of the world.

I think it is four, much like a birds foot. And the "hands" would be about the same, but the "thumb" would not be opposable. Just placed on the other end of the hand/paw like most birds feet.

Drakel · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:23 am

Ahhh... the old fingers and toes

I bin fighting with over 500 ppl on this. agian I will use loggic for my ansure. but befor I can help I need to know what typ of dragon are we talking about. Main dragon typs(euopean,Frost,and hydrakes), wyvern typ, aision lung typ, or the sea dragon typ. It matters to gain more info befor I talk about the wrong dragon lol.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:40 pm

Why not all. Just try to keep it to one post.

Drakel · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:13 pm

I think Main dragon typs(euopean,Frost,and hydrakes) would have 4 fingers/toes. The hands would have 3 fingers and 1 thumb. toes will be kinda what you sed vamp.

A wyren typ would have 3 toes( seeing thay only have 1 pair of legs and no arms). 2 fingers and no 1 thumb. Angin like what you sed vamp.

The aision lung typ would realy have 5 fingers and toes becouse why would the emprorer of china make it ilegal back than if that idea wasn't true. 4 fingers and 1 thumb. The feet would look kinda similar to the hand.

Last the sea dragon typ whould have 4 fingers. Think of a main dragon but with webbed feet. 3 fingers and 1 thumb.

alondor · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:37 pm

I must disagree with you Drak the traditional european dragon was always depicted with two fingers and a thumb of sorts and three toes positioned in a semi-straight line. Other than that I have nothing to add

Drakel · **Posted:** Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:58 pm

Not realy! I red over 20 books, storys, myths and legends. I also looked at many art that is over 500 years old, and if I put all that together I got 3 fingers and 1 thumb Main dragons.

What you are thinking about is a wyrem witch has 2 fingers and a thumb.

ps. I think I would know what I am talking about

pss. plz call me Drake, Drakes, DrakeL, or DM ( short for Dragon Master)

Drakel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:01 am

plz delete this post. I messed up lol. TY. :mrgreen:

Pandora · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:44 am

I think it rather depends on the breed of dragon more than anything else.

traditional dragons as I've seen it, mostly has almost human like feet. Four finger like claws in front paired with a thumb like claw, and in back five longer toe like claws with a bird like dew claw connected to the heel. Lungs going on this same concept except the feet would be a lot less padded.

It would make the most sense for the wyren to have more bird like feet. with the three fingers and the thumb like claws in the heel of the foot.

a lot of people don't even think of wurms as dragons.

And one would assume anything associated with the water would prolly have at least one set of fins.

And it really doesn't matter how many books and pictures you read or look at. It's plain old rude to tell someone you know better than them especially when discussing a matter that is based almost entirely on theory alone. It's ok to say you don't agree with someone however it's not so nice to flat out tell people they're wrong, ok?

Blue Tiger · **Joined:** Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:16 am **Posts:** 443

I agree there pandora. There are alot of references to bird like feet. I would just go with four toes/ claws in general. Chinese dragons have 4 or the imperial 5. Japanese dragons have 3. Most european dragon have four and I think that includes a thumb, but not as flexible as our thumbs as Vampirehunter42 said.

Drakel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:50 pm

Quote:

And it really doesn't matter how many books and pictures you read or look at. It's plain old rude to tell someone you know better than them especially when discussing a matter that is based almost entirely on theory alone. It's ok to say you don't agree with someone however it's not so nice to flat out tell people they're wrong, ok

ok I was not trying to be a show off. I was just saying you would think I would know what I am talking about. Also it is more rude to tell ppl that they rude just like the way you told me so I wouldn't be talking about who is more rude. ok?! or am I being to hard on you.(sacasm) after all you are just saying I know more but yet I am saying I would know what I am talking about. just like you would know what you are talking about!

Agian I looked into the feet prob and I did not know this post was about legs, arms and fins. I thoght it was fingers and toes. witch I explained in an easy way for evry1 to understand. H :swear:

l my lil bro can understand what I was talking about and he can't read.

Pandora · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:26 pm

Firstly just for starters, CALM DOWN! Take a deep breath and relax, No one is trying to do something god awful like shove a banana up yur bung hole.
Better now?
Although such a thing could be set up if you really like banana's or something.
________________________________________________________________

ok I was to trying to be a show off. I was just saying you would think I would know what I am talking about.
______
Um, hate to break it to you but you aren't the only one here who knows what they are talking about. No one would be here debating if we hadn't done a small tad of research of some kind. I was simply trying to take the kindly way about the situation and ask you not to do such a thing to keep the other members for getting angry with you.

Also it is more rude to tell ppl that they rude just like the way you told me so I wouldn't be talking about who is more rude. ok?! or am I being to hard on you.
_____

Huh? Being hard on me? that was supposed to make some kind of sense? Oh, by the way, I was being very polite before, now I'm slightly peeved so yes this that I'm doing at the moment might be slightly rude.

after all you are just saying I know more but yet I am saying I would know what I am talking about. just like you would know what you are talking about!
_____

Now I've read this a couple of times and quite frankly it doesn't make much since really. You should read over what you type to make sure other people can understand what you are trying to say. Keep in mind I've not meant a word of what I've said to you in any ill manner. In short what people see when they read this is: Everyone knows what they are talking about!

good no reason to keep repeating the obvious. Now back to the matter at hand.

Um, who's talking about arm's and legs exactly? No one has said anything about legs.

Fins are feet and have toes. Especially when dealing with larger animals, and i think dragons count as larger animals. Of course i understand what you are saying about the feet, let's remember I don't have to agree with you.

Also remember this is a debate not a brawling match. We're all friendly here and there is no reason to try making a fuss,and at the present time no one is mad at you so there is no need to be so defensive.

breath, relax, have a banana, their freshly picked.

Drakel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:50 pm

Pandora wrote:

Firstly just for starters, CALM DOWN! Take a deep breath and relax, No one is trying to do something god awful like shove a banana up yur bung hole.
Better now?
Although such a thing could be set up if you really like banana's or something.
________________________________________________________________

ok I was to trying to be a show off. I was just saying you would think I would know what I am talking about.
______
Um, hate to break it to you but you aren't the only one here who knows what they are talking about. No one would be here debating if we hadn't done a small tad of research of some kind. I was simply trying to take the kindly way about the situation and ask you not to do such a thing to keep the other members for getting angry with you.

Also it is more rude to tell ppl that they rude just like the way you told me so I wouldn't be talking about who is more rude. ok?! or am I being to hard on you.
_____

Huh? Being hard on me? that was supposed to make some kind of sense? Oh, by the way, I was being very polite before, now I'm slightly peeved so yes this that I'm doing at the moment might be slightly rude.

after all you are just saying I know more but yet I am saying I would know what I am talking about. just like you would know what you are talking about!
_____

Now I've read this a couple of times and quite frankly it doesn't make much since really. You should read over what you type to make sure other people can understand what you are trying to say. Keep in mind I've not meant a word of what I've said to you in any ill manner. In short what people see when they read this is: Everyone knows what they are talking about!

good no reason to keep repeating the obvious. Now back to the matter at hand.

Um, who's talking about arm's and legs exactly? No one has said anything about legs.

Fins are feet and have toes. Especially when dealing with larger animals, and i think dragons count as larger animals. Of course i understand what you are saying about the feet, let's remember I don't have to agree with you.

Also remember this is a debate not a brawling match. We're all friendly here and there is no reason to try making a fuss,and at the present time no one is mad at you so there is no need to be so defensive.

breath, relax, have a banana, their freshly picked.

1. on the top pplz would take that offencive lol
2. sarcasm sucks on forums
3. agian you are saying that I am saying that I am smarter than you. I am not trying to say I am smarter than you I am just saying I looked more than alot of other ppl.
4. I am not trying to fight with you all but I should typ what I think and some of the facts.
5. I am more calm than you are right now. or I would be typing LIKE THIS THRU THE HOLE MESSEGE. kk.
6. yes you have the right to debate and not agree but I also have the same right to say what I think.
7. I know that you are all friends here. and I am not being defensive.I am just trying to explain what I think and that is all.

Pandora · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:09 pm

I am calm silly yur just taking everything to heart a bit too much, and yes i know that you arn't trying to say you are better than anyone else, it just reads out that way is what I'm trying to tell you. It's seems both of us have some typing skills to work on. Nether of us has worded things the way we mean for others to understand them. Just try to stay away from saying stuff like No it's this way or you are wrong, stuff like that. Wasn't really trying to call you rude, I'm guessing that's the way it came out anyways. You come across a bit harsh when you say things like "even my brother can understand what i said." That might not seem offensive but to some people that might come across as saying you think someone here didn't have the brains to comprehend your words. Does that make more sense?

Drakel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:48 pm

Pandora wrote:

I am calm silly yur just taking everything to heart a bit too much, and yes i know that you arn't trying to say you are better than anyone else, it just reads out that way is what I'm trying to tell you. It's seems both of us have some typing skills to work on. Nether of us has worded things the way we mean for others to understand them. Just try to stay away from saying stuff like No it's this way or you are wrong, stuff like that. Wasn't really trying to call you rude, I'm guessing that's the way it came out anyways. You come across a bit harsh when you say things like "even my brother can understand what i said." That might not seem offensive but to some people that might come across as saying you think someone here didn't have the brains to comprehend your words. Does that make more sense?

Oh! lol
why didn't you just say what you sed now in the first place lol gess you are right right now. I realy try not to say you are wrong but when ppl say I am wrong that is when I fight back(as in typ the facts of my posts) witch I forgot to do this time lol. now about that lil brother prob. yes I was a lil harsh when I sed that and srry. just going with the point that I try to keep things overly simple. oh well what we gona do. gess we should stop posting on this subject and put it behinde us

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:01 pm

Hua, I like the use of the word "facts" here. The main problem is we have no real facts.

The best we can do is compare them to known creatures, living and dead, to come up with a fair example of what might work.

While we are at it, lets add the bat like wings into the problem. They are more or less hands.

Drakel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:24 pm

ok wings are not hands. wings are wings. and I don't want to be fighting about sutch a dum thing like wings. we all know what a dragon looks like and how the wings would look thru storys and legends. plus it's to easy to imagin but hard to explain. so I am not gona fight with any1 on this.

Pandora · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:53 am

hmmm, wings? Well if you think about it bat wings do have finger like qualities to them. After all if you look at a bat wing or a dragon wing for that matter, there are four finger like structures holding the webbed part of the wings together,and a thumb like limb protrudes from the top of the joints that connect the finger like limbs together. However it has no palm to be considered a hand. Although, there is enough of a resemblance to maybe be a simi hand maybe?

Falconer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:57 am

Good Lord, this place is turning into a flame war. Drakes, tone down the spunky streak.

Toes... Drawings from the middle ages are useless. The tendency for artists to use second or even third hand accounts was waaaay to high to use them for reference. Therefore the only source of information we have is current organisms.
I'm thinking the forelimbs and hind limbs would have the same foot structure and toe count, with a different count for the wings, probably (and I use the term loosely) five or four.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:12 am

Falconer wrote:

Good Lord, this place is turning into a flame war. Drakes, tone down the spunky streak.

Toes... Drawings from the middle ages are useless. The tendency for artists to use second or even third hand accounts was waaaay to high to use them for reference. Therefore the only source of information we have is current organisms.
I'm thinking the forelimbs and hind limbs would have the same foot structure and toe count, with a different count for the wings, probably (and I use the term loosely) five or four.

???
I was calm in my last post. I just did not want to fight about wings when we all clearly know what the wings look like. nothing more nothing less.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:13 pm

Well Falconer said it. We can not use drawings or accounts of the past. Sometimes they get things not quite right.

For example look at this one

From the Tapestry of Bayeu. That looks like a little dragon on the bottom, also look at the humans. Is that how real do the humans look? And look at the comet (Halley’s Comet to be more precise). Is that how a comet looks in the sky? It is all according to how an artist is able to show something he/she may not have even been around.

And I only added wings because they are modified hands (or better said arms). Even a bird's wing has finger bones in it. As well as the Pterosaurs. And as said the bat like wings. And seeing the wing shape can be any of these or something completely different, I wanted to throw it into the ring.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:17 pm

vampirehunter42 wrote:

Well Falconer said it. We can not use drawings or accounts of the past. Sometimes they get things not quite right.

For example look at this one

From the Tapestry of Bayeu. That looks like a little dragon on the bottom, also look at the humans. Is that how real do the humans look? And look at the comet (Halley’s Comet to be more precise). Is that how a comet looks in the sky? It is all according to how an artist is able to show something he/she may not have even been around.

And I only added wings because they are modified hands (or better said arms). Even a bird's wing has finger bones in it. As well as the Pterosaurs. And as said the bat like wings. And seeing the wing shape can be any of these or something completely different, I wanted to throw it into the ring.

"It is not how the drawing looks but what it means"
L.D.

also we all agree that dragons has bat like wings. How could we fight over somthing we all agree on vamp. It is like trying to fight yourself. Not as easy as you think to fight yourself. so unless some1 has an opinion about dragon wings that I can't agree on. I can not argue over wings. -_-

ps. the picture looks more like a crowe.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:21 pm

Good you finally get the point of what we are saying.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:32 pm

vampirehunter42 wrote:

Good you finally get the point of what we are saying.

now we are going back to toes and fingers agian?! Ya a picture has flaws. but sorces don't have as mutch flaws, And I have over 29 sorces that say how many toes/ fingers a dragon would have. Ya I have a 50% on being wrong, but you all have the same chance on being wrong as well. So I will stey with my opinion and you can have your own on the subject.

ps. Next time plz just get to the point insted of making a complex way to explain things. I couldin't see any point untill vamp. showed me the pic. I try to keep the point simple so evry1 could understand what I am trying to get at.

NOTE: that I sed TRY to keep the point simple.

vampirehunter42 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:39 pm

Cool, what sourses? If no link name the book(s) and pages. I'll like to check them out.

Drakel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:48 pm

all of them. dragonian, wikipedia, lair2000, chinese.astrology so on . books not realy a good name purson. I kinda look, read, than give it back to my libary. Never to be seen agian, but I think I can explaine what my last book was about but than I would say all the pages of the book. I also look at myths and legends.I even look into slayer websites. who would think there are still slayers lol.

Number of fingers/toes

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